Monday, September 2, 2013

Casteism and the broken apologetic of Puranic fairy tale allegoryism

 I meant to do this earlier but will convey my belated acknowledgement to Nirmukta, its editors and moderators in getting my post "Upanishads and the Poor Calibre of Hindu Apologists" to a wider audience and generating more reactions and debate.

One of the unintended but nevertheless effective consequences of that article, judging from the reactions, has been to hit the Hindu conservative sensibility on casteism ‘below the belt’ so to say.

Nothing rankles and deflates the typical Hindu cultural pride and jingoism more than the almost never-ending critical refrain on caste discrimination. The guilty squirming of its qualms gets more intense when its scriptures are led through the ‘trail by fire’ of skeptical attacks.

Since Hindu conservatives have no way to defend the stigma of Casteism, they resort to the standard escapism of absolving their scriptures from any blame.

The hollow and bogus argument that Hindu scriptures disapprove and denounce casteism is not going to cut any ice in a debate, because all the arguments made so far are shallow and dubious.

I had challenged in one of my earlier comments  that Hindu religious brigade show verses from scriptures that disapprove/condemn/denounce casteism. That challenge has so far gone a begging.

The only diversionary tactic that has had some dubious success is to beat around the bush on Bhagavad Gita (BG) verses using new and revisionist allegory.

The BG is a slippery, slimy and duplicitous work of Brahminism. To expose its duplicity on casteism requires critical and skeptical analysis which has been attempted but usually falls on the deaf ears of Hindu conservatism.

For example on Varna Samkara (destruction of varna/caste), the BG makes Arjuna the fall guy or sucker by putting almost all Varna Samkara verses into his mouth. It makes Krishna neatly side-step and evade answering the Varna Samkara concerns of Arjuna by resorting to metaphysical nonsense on soul and selfless action.

But Krishna or BG comes back to justifying Varna Dharma in the next chapters by twisting and corrupting the Sankhya’s triguna doctrine and adding Karma to this cocktail mix.

The shrewd tactic of the BG is to never make or reveal its position on caste perpetuation in a single verse or chapter, but to strew and sprinkle it all over the first main chapters

Whether intentional or not BG does a classic act of hedging by this verse-scattering tactic, where the divine ordination of caste is thrown in a later chapter while the call to carrying out one’s caste duty is placed in an earlier chapter. 

In a similar way the demotion of lower castes, vilification of women and the glorification of top 2 castes (9.32 and 9.33) is placed in a section of BG that is supposed to elaborate Gnana/Bhakti Yoga, setting it up for a escape hatch of spiritual allegory whenever any unfavorable mention or attack is made on it.

Let’s look at another typical tactic of Hindu conservative flag bearers, which is to use the fictional characters of Puranas who have supposedly risen out of the Caste hierarchy even though they were born Sudras.

Do these names sound familiar to the skeptics:
  • Veda Vyasa
  • Valmiki
  • Vishwamitra
  • Satyakama
Now compare the above names with this grand claim and favorite escape clause of Hindu defense:
"You can find a lot of incidents in ancient texts where a Brahman by birth was not considered as a Brahman by virtue of what he was supposed to do or possess. Our texts did never hide any fact."

with the above examples. Are those a lot of examples?. It is not even a handful. And the height of Hindu apologetic pretence is that not one of this is a real world example.

We are not even sure that one real Valmiki who was an illiterate forest brigand indeed himself wrote a huge work of Ramayana in Panini or Patanjali Style Sanskrit. Even the Ramayana legend says that Valmiki became a scholar due to a boon of Narada who took pity on him. 

How does a condescending favor and supernatural act by the Brahminic Narada on a tribal person serve as a testimony that tribals were accepted as sages by a Brahmin dominated society?!

Transcending caste induced penury and discrimination by a boon does not show the scripture in a good light unless the dreaded allegory come to the rescue of bumbling Hindu apology.

Veda Vyasa is an excellent testimony/illustration of the debauchery of the Mahabharata age which the savage Aryas has no qualms parading and chronicling, since they must have had the prescience to know that Hindu conservative fools of the 21st century will unite in the defence and apology of the immorality of their arrogant and savage royal ancestors!!.

If the Mahabharata chronicle of the promiscuous orgies of the Brahmins/Kshatriyas are to be believed, Veda Vyasa is not really a Sudra but of mixed Brahmin birth, since he is the product of a ‘spiritual’ sage’s escapade with a foster-child of a fisherman. Even animals were not spared by the lust of our spiritual seers. Just because the irresponsible father could not own up to his sins and crimes, that orphaned state does not necessarily make Vyasa a sudra. Royal shame and obligation also accounts for Vyasa’s rise in the epic, not his work, merits, or a society that was welcoming of lower castes.

Vyasa’s track record in surrogacy is not something that Hindus can be proud of. But Hindus / Brahmins have this insouciance, thick skin and skills of myth-making jugglery where they can white-wash the pimping and surrogacy blots of Veda Vyasa and elevate him by making him the sole author of ghost-written parables and also the compiler of Vedas!!.

Sorry Hindu conservatives!!! we want real examples and not tainted fairy tale ‘anti-heroes’

Now lets prolong the agony of a broken Hindu apology by examining the case of the unfortunate Vishwamitra. The travails of Vishwamitra is an invalid example of overriding of caste identity. This fairy tale is a very good example of the intellectual rivalry between two already elite castes (Brahmin vs Kshatriya). Vishwamitra did not get his way easily and his graduation to the level to Brahmarishi was filled with thorns of Brahminical foul play including Menaka to which he succumbed for quite a while. 

This tale in fact symbolizes how almost impossible it is to get to the privilege of Brahminhood if one is not born into it. The Trishanku swarga episode shows how determined Brahminical authority is in fiercely guarding its inherited turf. 

If Hinduism truly accepts and reveres Vishwamitra why do Hindus still aspire to the real swarga in their Vedic oblations and prayers, and not the second-hand paradise of Trishanku Swarga?.

52 comments:

  1. By calling premarital sex "debauchery" as you did, you reveal the remnants of your conservative ethics leaking through.

    There is nothing wrong with premarital sex. Sorry for your failed evangelism.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. exactly. the liason was between two consenting adults. what's wrong with that?

      Delete
    2. Pre-marital sex has not been termed debauchery. Pls look up the meaning of debauchery and compare it to the many sexual orgies, liaisons and sensuality binges of the Mahabharata tales with some care for what it means from a moral and social perspective and then decide your position.

      Do not cherry pick meanings that suit your Hindu cultural and religious agenda. Tell me very honestly which society (forget the Hindu society) is very accepting of premarital sex or infidelity or promiscuity?.

      Hiding being online anonymity, it is very easy to be a proponent of not only premarital relationships, but all kinds of promiscuity (of which the Mahabharata & Puranas are a treasure trove) under the pretense of the doctrine of consensual behavior of adults.

      I doubt if the average or the bulk of Hindu or Indian society will be as generous, supportive and 'modern' as you anonymous cowards on these issue of both individual and social morality.

      There is nothing wrong in many of the human failings, but that does not exempt it from criticism, my so-called conservatism notwithstanding.

      Delete
    3. In your language, premarital sex has been termed debauchery. Regarding Parasara's union with Satyavati, you call it "promiscuous orgy--" you say Vyasa is testament to the "debauchery" of the Mahabharata. Not really. There were two people on a boat, Parasara sought consent, and it was given.

      I'd be welcome to hear of any real "orgies" in the Mahabharata that are put up as positive, but even if they exist, so what? Group sex, if it floats peoples' boat, is okay if it is consensual.

      For phrasing these views, why am I a coward? It just proves that you're a conservative bigot for finding issue with these examples. Once again, invective.

      As for this: Tell me very honestly which society (forget the Hindu society) is very accepting of premarital sex or infidelity or promiscuity?

      Why is this relevant to the question? But okay: American society, many European societies, Canadian society. Is that enough?

      Delete
    4. It's so ridiculous, even his small mind realized it. Victory :)

      Delete
  2. "Veda Vyasa is not really a Sudra but of mixed Brahmin birth, since he is the product of a ‘spiritual’ sage’s escapade with a mermaid, no less!!!'

    Umm... Satyavati was a fisherman's daughter, not a mermaid. What the fuck are you reading?

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    Replies
    1. Satyavati was not a Fisherman's biological daughter, but probably adopted by a fisherman or a community of fishermen. On any reasonable reading of the tale, the genealogy of Satyavati would have to be traced to a fish, not human beings.

      It is fine to criticize and find fault. But please mind your language. I am replying because this rebuttal and clarification may help others, and is not an condoning of your foul-mouthed response.

      If you cannot be civil, don't even bother to respond.

      Delete
    2. Yep, it's a fish, but she's still a human, not a mermaid. So where in Parasara's union with Satyavati is bestiality implied? It is implied in the myth that "seed" grew inside a fish into a human being. So mermaid? Nope.

      Delete
    3. And pardon me, but I won't mind my language. You play by double standards-- using poor language when you see fit, but acting "hurt and offended" when other's use it at you.

      You be a douche, I do it right back at ya :)

      Delete
    4. Even if the being who looks, walks, and talks like a human can be termed a "mermaid," consent was given.

      We say bestiality is wrong because animals can't give consent. But in this case, there was consent.

      So this wasn't wrong, even if you want to stretch/mutilate the story to call it "bestiality."

      Delete
    5. Quoting from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyavati ) for what ever it is worth.

      "Daughter of the Chedi king Vasu (also known as Uparichara Vasu) and a cursed apsara (celestial nymph)-turned-fish Adrika, Satyavati was brought up as a commoner – the adopted daughter of a fisherman-chieftain (who was also a ferryman) on the banks of the rivers Yamuna."

      If not a mermaid, she certainly seems to be child of a fish.

      Delete
    6. Of course she is child of fish. Noone disputed this. Does not make her an animal though.

      The question is: is the union bestiality? No. Because she was human. It is an underhanded tactic of trying to defame his opponents as supporters of bestiality that Ranganath is using.

      Delete
    7. "Anonymous", all I can say is you are well nourished and also have indigestion. Ranganatha is good critic. He has born into the same as you are.The sentence " ... remnants of your conservative ethics", don't try to measure some with an absolute scale. We are all conditioned by our religious and cultural world. As we experience new worlds we change our beliefs.

      Delete
  3. You will hopefully admit your mistake on that one.

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01064.htm

    ReplyDelete
  4. Friends,

    Since I've been gone, quite a storm seems to have come about! I probably won't return, but before I go, I have this to say:

    I'm assuming most of you are Nirmukta freethinkers. Unfortunately, given the size of the Indian freethought community, Indian freethinkers are forced to ally themselves with just any fool who professes atheism. But the thing is, we don't really want allies who have the right conclusions-- we want ones with the right arguments too.

    Having Ranganath as an spokesman for us-- someone who is wrong a lot, usually because he intentionally changes facts here and there to support his conclusions (e.g. Satyavati = Mermaid ==> Bestiality, among others on this blog)-- is not someone we want to speak for us.

    Ranganath probably doesn't understand this, because in his view, if you're with him you're a freethinker. If you're not with him, you're an apologist, Hindutvadi, or whatever floats his boat.

    Please leave this forum. Don't make this pathetic excuse for an "intellectual" feel like he's a martyr. Come back to Nirmukta and let's do our work from there.

    Best,

    Sachin

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    Replies
    1. Dont know who this self-appointed spokesperson of the Indian freethought community called Sachin is, who is trying to insinuate me as a spokesperson of freethought!!

      It is a very strange assumption indeed that anonymous commenters here with their raving rants and rubbish are Nirmukta freethinkers and that they are allying with me or have to ally with me.

      Maybe we will have to redefine who an ally is!!!

      Sorry!! your false equivalence, diversionary tactics and poor 'Trojanism' has been called out

      You are always welcome to take your trojanism elsewhere.

      Delete
    2. Thanks for NOT dealing with our accusations, as always, you blue-collared, unqualified excuse for a freethinker.

      Sachin never claimed to be a spokesman. But it is clear that you are trying to be. And we won't have that.

      Tell us where we are wrong. Then we will decide whether what the crowd of us says is rubbish, or if the bullshit that you keep posting on this ridiculous blog is.

      The worst part is your views on sexuality, though. You sad, middle-aged foreigner-- your critical thinking skills are worse than your English. Go back to your country where your sexual values are shared.

      Delete
    3. And for the record, Ranganath-- in English, when you use an exclamation mark, you only use it once. Noone uses two exclamation marks. Ever.

      Delete
  5. Dear Ranganath,

    I don't believe you are right about the mermaid part. Personally, I also find no sexual immorality championed in the epic since the only sexual immorality is rape.

    Regards,

    Ashwin

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  6. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  7. OMG! We like to debate trivialities, don't we. The post is about calling the bluff of caste apologetics. And we have sidelined ourself into a discussion on beastiality.

    One of the point made by Ranganath is this.

    ** Veda Vyasa is not really a Sudra but of mixed Brahmin birth, since he is the product of a ‘spiritual’ sage’s escapade with a mermaid, no less!!!.**

    This point I believe is made to dispel the idea that Vyasa was a Shudra as claimed by Hindu apologists wanting to wish away casteism from ancient texts by pointing to a few real and fictional characters who seem to have risen from low birth and yet managed to play an important role in ancient society.

    I believe the important point in Ranganath's response is the part about **mixed Brahmin birth** and not the part about **escapade with a mermaid**. I think it will make sense to focus the debate on the part about mixed Brahmin birth and if that refutes the apologists claim that Vyasa was a Shudra. Focusing on mermaids and morality of beastiality is a waste of time as for as this discussion is concerned.

    Just my two cents.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Captain Mandrake,

      I was actually kind of excited to see you reply on here! I've been a follower of your and Satish Chandra's comments on Nirmukta and have enjoyed them.

      That being said, I don't believe that what is being debated here is a "triviality."

      It is a shame that I have to preface my comment this way, but given the McCarthyism of this blog (read: apologist/revisionist instead of Communist), it is necessary. I've been an atheist since my second year of undergrad. I am right now doing my first year in grad school in South Asian Studies and hope to do my thesis on a topic pertaining to 17th-19th century Tamil society.

      I don't think a single commentator here thinks that caste apologetics hold any water. And we don't disagree with what Ranganath has said to that effect. So maybe we should take a page out of Dale Carnegie's book and affirm what Ranganath has done right first.

      That being said, I-- and I'm sure the rest-- are tired of the fact that he puts inaccurate statements in his works, and when questioned about these statements-- imputes Hindutva sympathies or otherwise to us. At best, he is just wrong. At worst, he is being intentionally dishonest to further the quality of his polemics.

      You say that we should let him get away with this mermaid thing. Why? It is clearly a ludicrous statement. Yet when called out about it, he doesn't admit it. Do we really need to be dishonest about Hindu scripture to show that it is immoral? Are Manu, Shambuka, and the rest not good enough? If we make stuff up about Hindus to use as "ammunition," doesn't that work against thus and give them ammo that we're "lying?"

      We are sensitive to this because Ranganath does this so often. In another post, Ranganath claims that the canonizers of the Dasavathara were misognyists because they did not include Mohini. This is actually an interesting question that one of my professors would be qualified to research. There are so many Vishnu incarnations scattered in Sanskrit and Pali works-- why only those ten? The misognyist hypothesis is a poor one, because it doesn't explain why the other males were excluded. Still, one commentator offered a counterexample and noted that Mohini was an avatara in the Bhagavata Purana. Ranganath immediately accused him of being a Hindu apologist.

      Another outrageous claim he made is that Gandhi set Indian independence back by 50 years, meaning India should have gotten independent by 1900 were it not for his actions. But Gandhi didn't rise to popularity, or even come back to India, until close to 1920. So how could he have sabotaged a 1900 independence date when he didn't DO anything until 1920??

      I won't rant. But I will say that trying to pass Satyavati off as a mermaid and not admitting it was a cheap, underhanded tactic. I value atheism, but I value truth and academic honesty above everything else. Are we not allowed to call Ranagnath out for that?


      Even to the commentators above, he didn't reply-- he just singled out Sachin and used invective. Granted, we were a little rude, but we have been polite before to no avail-- he just calls us fundamentalists.

      Now I'll put you on the spot: I know you have Nirmukta ties to Ranganath, but are you prepared to say what he won't-- that he was absolutely wrong about the mermaid business?

      Delete
    2. ^ second that. it's interesting that ranganath is more civil to REAL hindu apologists than to people who actually know what they're talking about.

      Delete
    3. Lol those are nothing. These are the worst:

      (1) When told that the followers of Purva Mimamsa were atheists who believed in the metaphysical power of ritual and thought that the "similarity" of mantras to Sanskrit was a coincidence-- Ranganath accused the person of being an apologist.

      (2) He thought that if something like the Dharmasastra says that it "distills" the Vedas, then it really does. A quote by Dr. Laurie Patton of Emory University in her book on the Brhaddevata was used to set this right. Apologist again.

      (3) He seems to think that Tantra is "ancient," but the first evidence for Tantra that we have is the Middle Ages during the Buddhist heydey. He says that the Shiva Linga originated with "ancient Tantra" and is an "animistic" symbol. There's no evidence for that-- the earliest Linga that we have evidence to is from Gudimallam in the 4th century C.E. When someone pointed this out, he was assumed to be a Shaivite.

      (4) Finally, he seems to think that South Indian dress is indecent, despite dress decency being absolutely subjective.

      Delete
    4. Hi,

      Nice to know that you like my comments on Nirmukta. I have to let you know that I have no ties to Nirmukta or Ranganath. But I do like his posts both on Nirmukta and this blog. I must also admit that my knowledge of scriptures is close to zero. Having said that and after reading your comment and re-reading this post (but not all other comments or other blog posts) I still think the mermaid thing is a trivial issue. If it is an error as you and Ashwin point out then it is a trivial error. It does not change the message (rebutting caste apologetics) of the post. The trivial error could have been pointed out in the comments section (as Ashwin has done in his short post) with out making snide remarks (I am not saying that you made those remarks) about the author's English, age, and nationality.

      You also seem to have butted head with Ranganath on several other topics as you point out in your comments above. It is possible that you are correct and he is wrong on all those issues. I do not know what the etiquette on blogosphere is for bloggers and commenters. But this is after all his blog and he can be as rude (it can be viewed as a legitimate response to potty-mouthed comments about his English, age, and nationality) as he wants in the way he debates you. If you want to engage him on his blog and want to change his mind then it is kind of up to you. But on moderated forums like Nirmukta you can expect the moderators to step in to enforce order as I have often seen them do. Perhaps you can have your debates with him in the comments sections of Nirmukta. Better still you can even write an article debunking the usual wrong claims made by atheists about Hindu scriptures and send it to the editorial board of Nirmukta.

      -Captain Mandrake

      Delete
    5. ** are you prepared to say what he won't-- that he was absolutely wrong about the mermaid business?**


      PS: Based on the Wikipedia link Satyawati was not a mermaid but a child of a fish. So yes Ranganath was wrong.

      -CM

      Delete
    6. Hi Captain Mandrake,

      It is I-- the one who initially responded to you. Thanks for your reply. I actually didn't send the other two replies, just the first one. And I would never attack Ranganath's nationality or age-- such ad hominem attacks are out of place.

      You are right, it is his blog. In the zeal of my new environment, I have forgotten Internet etiquette. I am being trained right now to engage scholars on their work whenever I can, to bring errors in manuscripts to attention should I ever spot them. But this is probably not the place for that.

      I did it on this blog a couple of times-- but it gets personal when you're immediately assumed to be a "troll" or "Hindu fanatic" for pointing such things out. My parting advice to Ranganath is to not start on that assumption unless you see that a commentator is defending certain metaphysical doctrines.

      And gradually, I got a little less polite-- as I did in the message with you. But you are right, it is his blog. For the record, I still know that he's wrong and wish that he would at least be open to discuss his views. But one can't expect that of everyone, and I wonder why he is so defensive. Thank you once again for your response.

      Delete
    7. captain mandrake, your "hero" has written a post accusing us all of being hindu apologists just for calling him out to be wrong. he always does this. is our anger not justified? he has completely missed the point.

      i understand what the problem is. he thinks that in pointing out his errors, we have some sort of hidden agenda. he clearly doesn't understand how debate works.

      Delete
  8. You say that Veda Vyasa was "pimping."

    Google defines a pimp as "a man who controls prostitutes and arranges clients for them, taking part of their earnings in return."

    When did Veda Vyasa control prostitutes?

    ReplyDelete
  9. Sexuality in the Mahabharata that is not condemned falls into these categories:

    1) Polygyny
    2) Polyandry
    3) Transgendered People

    There are no orgies mentioned. Provide us the verse numbers, Ranganath?

    Of course, Ranganath is on record saying he thinks that orgies are bad-- if they are between consenting individuals, what's the problem?

    Same with group marriage or polyandry and polygyny-- what's wrong?

    I really hope that Ranganath isn't a homophobe-- that would be the last nail in the coffin, but I wouldn't put it past him.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ofcourse there is nothing wrong with polyamory. I do not see anything in Ranganath's post or comments that says it is immoral.

      -CM

      Delete
    2. then tell me why does he criticise the "debauchery" of the mahabharata?? what is debauchery in his view and why is it bad??

      Delete
    3. I do not know. You should ask him what he meant by debauchery instead of assuming that he opposes polyamory.

      -CM

      Delete
    4. Hey Again Captain Mandrake,

      It's your Initial Responder again. With reference to the reply I gave you... Unfortauntely, what Anonymous posted here was asked above... but Ranganath didn't engage the question and instead went after Sachin...

      Best Wishes to Both of You.

      Delete
  10. friends, i will tell you all what the problem us-- this ranganath r is a brahmin!! he is trying to put his brahminical values on us.

    maybe he is no longer hindu. good for him. but he is still a brahmin. according to the dalit studies scholar gail omvedt, atheism is not enough to weed out brahminism from society. because once a brahmin, always a brahmin.

    so people can only have sex the way ranganath r, the brahmin, prescribes!! hah!! and he also hates transgender people!! these brahmins are always this way.

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    Replies
    1. i think this ranganath r sees himself as the new manu!!

      Delete
  11. It is a very peculiar and incredulous accusation, to say the least, that perceived or real errors of historicity of scriptural works or Hindu doctrine in a few posts on this blog undermine the cause of Atheism and free thought.

    It is even more puzzling that commenters here proclaiming to be or masquerading as atheists are so offended by the characterization of certain parts of Mahabharata as permissive (I used the stronger term of debauchery which seems to have rubbed the wrong way) and antithetical to reasonable tenets and standards of morality (bestiality was one of the 'blasphemous' terms used which also has served as a red rag to the Hindu cultural bull). Why this rush and upsurge to defend a religious or scriptural relic that should be of very little emotional value to atheists and free thinkers?.

    Both Dr. Ambedkar (Riddles of Hinduism) and VR Narla (Truth of the Gita) have between the two quoted and cited enough instances of bestiality and debauchery in the Mahabharata, Puranas & Ramayana (This is sure to infuriate the cultural vigilantes even more). We will come to that at a later time.

    Then again what has the insinuation of my being a moral conservative which has also been used as another lynchpin of ad-hominem attacks on me, got to do with the ideas and theme of this and other posts.

    Regardless of what my personal moral stance or philosophy is, free-thought and some degree of moral conservatism are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

    Neither have I outlined or framed my moralism nor have my adversaries done theirs. They have not conveyed their perception of permissiveness and shown why certain parts of the Mahabharata cannot subjectively be considered permissive. So simply lebelling me conservative or prude is nothing but an ad-hominem attack. They are only demeaning themselves in all this muck-racking.

    After Capt. Mandrake pointed out that in all this frenzy of cultural outrage and blogger bashing, the main issue of the poor caste apologetic was forgotten and ignored, just one grudging and reluctant confession of the lapse came.

    While I am in a sense staggered by the responses, it is mostly abusive derogatory and in very poor taste. I will of course respond, as time and effort permits, to points of historical veracity raised in some responses. People are of course free to form their own ideas from the lack of response or the nature of my response to feed their triumphalism as it were. It is not possible to please all.

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    1. Capt. Mandrake,

      I invite you to see your hero in his true colors.

      See what he did here once again.

      "Hindu cultural bull." "cultural vigilantes." He uses both of these terms to describe the lot of us simply because we proved him wrong. And he acts as if only we are guilty of ad hominem. Curioser and curioser.

      The key to Ranganath's mentality is revealed in the statement he gives here:
      Why this rush and upsurge to defend a religious or scriptural relic that should be of very little emotional value to atheists and free thinkers?.

      Because we care about the truth. And one of the commentators is pursuing a PhD in history. As stated before, Ranganath only cares about the conclusion. He is fine with a statement which says that Hinduism is wrong, unicorns exist, cars can fly, and George W. Bush had two heads. All we are doing is pointing out the nonsense in his ameteurish critique so that we can say "Hinduism is wrong" with accuracy. This idiot who thinks he's a freethinker doesn't seem to be able to get that.

      Delete
    2. Classic switch-and-bait tactics. You called the liaison of Satyavati with Parasara bestiality, it is very clear in your text. I really don't care if Ambedkar and Narla found ten thousand examples of bestiality between the two of them, yours, my friend, is not one-- you are wrong? Care to admit it? No, of course you won't-- you'll dance around this post with ad hominem attacks.

      Delete
    3. And by the way, Captain Mandrake also says you are wrong. Are you going to call him a cultural vigilante as well?

      His post:

      ** are you prepared to say what he won't-- that he was absolutely wrong about the mermaid business?**


      PS: Based on the Wikipedia link Satyawati was not a mermaid but a child of a fish. So yes Ranganath was wrong.

      -CM

      Delete
    4. "just one grudging and reluctant confession of the lapse came."

      Guys, this is not an ad hominem attack-- I actually question Ranganath R's English proficiency. The PhD student never confessed to a lapse. He simply chastised Ranganath's closed-mindedness, declared himself above it, and moved on.

      When you can get a mermaid from the Mahabharata though, what else can one expect!

      Delete
  12. Ranganath's Next Post:

    Today I will expose the lie and bluff of the Puranas. The Puranas are demonstrably false. They say that humans lived on the earth for trillions of years!!! How hilarious!!! When scientists say that the earth itself is 4.6 billion years old, the regular Hindu clap-trap tells us that humans were there longer!!!

    But Hindu apologists use switch-and-bait tactics. Since the Abrahamic religions say that the earth is only 6000 years old, they will say that the ancient rishis knew better by assigning a greater age to the earth!

    This lie and bluff is so obviously false, because humans did not appear until less than one million years ago.

    How ridiculous are Puranic claims then, that Rama ruled Beirut millions of years ago, or that Krishna living in the island city of Beijing in 3200 B.C.E! We recall that Krishna was guilty of rape of gopis in the Puranas! One wonders at these Hindus, who have now turned into cultural vigilantes...

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    1. The Next Person to Reply to This Post:

      Ranganath, the Puranas say that Rama ruled Ayodhya and Krishna lived in Dwaraka.

      Also... there is no mention of rape in any tale of Krishna. Not in the Mahabharata, not in the Bhagavata Purana, and not in the Harivamsa. These three are the Sanskritic source material. Where are you getting rape from? Promiscuity, yes, but not rape. Can you give me the verse numbers?

      Sincerely,

      Praveen

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    2. Ranganath's Reply:

      Praveen,

      Your response is the stock reply of Hindu apologists and smacks of clap-trap and bigotry.

      Comments like this are useless. Do not be confrontational. I can provide a many instances of rape that I read in VR Narla's book on the Gita and in Riddle's of Hinduism by Ambedkar.

      Of course, you seem to be very knowledgeable about the Mahabharata!! Only an apologist would be so knowledgeable!! You can take your Hindu bigotry elsewhere.

      Delete
    3. Praveen Tries One Last Time:

      Ranganath, I am not a Hindu... but nowhere in the Sanskrit sources does it say that Rama ruled Beirut or that Krishna ruled Beijing. Also, you have yet to give me the citations to rape.

      Please stick with the topic.

      Best,

      Praveen

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    4. Amazing parody of Ranganath's idiocy. You know, IQs are normally distributed. 50% of the population is below the mean of 100...

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  13. Ranganath... we are tired. Why can't you just admit you were wrong about the mermaid bit? Why did you try and fudge the truth by including it?

    And if you really are so progressive, why did you term the liaison between Satyavati and Parasara debauchery? Are you against polyamory and group sex?

    These are direct questions. Forget everything else... and just answer this. And we will be happy.

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  14. I don't get it bro, we literally raised two points.

    1) You're wrong about the mermaid. And,

    2) Where exactly is the "debauchery" in the Satyavati episode?

    And then he keeps on, keeps on, keeps on calling us names like he always does. I swear it's like dealing with a child...

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  15. Ranganath's gone complaining about us on Nirmukta that we're cultural vigilantes.

    The issue is black and white. Ranganath puts inaccurate statements in his work. We call him out about it. Instead of confronting the issue, he assumes that anyone who disagrees with him must be a fundamentalist. Even if behind the screen, they're actually PhD students who know a lot more about the subject than he does.

    It's Reza Aslan all over again. As Dr. Aslan himself would say, "Ma'am, I don't think you understand. I have a PhD!"

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  16. The dishonest Ranganath has taken down his new article!

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    1. Well, what that means is that we win. Go team! w00t

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    2. Hah! Coward! He still won't admit he was wrong though. He'll ask us to "keep our triumphalism in abeyance" or some shit like that.

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